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  • Writer's picturePatrick Norris

85. Dr. Todd Bowman and Rick Presley – How to Deal with Difficult People: The Narcissist

Welcome to Episode #85 of the Red Ink Revival Leadership Podcast. Today’s conversation is with psychologist Dr. Todd Bowman and therapist Rick Presley as we talk through how to deal with difficult people.

Dr. Bowman is the Associate Professor of Counseling at Indiana Wesleyan University, an Adjunct Professor for Human Sexuality at Nazarene Theological Seminary, an Adjunct Professor of the Intro to Psychology at Nazarene Bible College, and an evaluating psychologist for assessing seminary applicants for seminaries.

Rick Presley is a licensed marriage and family therapist. His expertise and certifications include being a sexual addiction professional, EMDR provider, and partner betrayal clinician. He is an experienced treatment provider in grief, loss, and trauma recovery.

Our conversation takes us into the following:

  • The “difficult people characteristics” that therapists and pastors experience.

  • How our bodies signal us of other people’s personality disorders.

  • How to handle people taking advantage of our empathy.

  • The difference between a person that presents as a “jerk” and one with a personality disorder.

  • The importance of not weaponizing against others by transposing disorder-labels on them.

  • The power of self-awareness and self-reflection.

  • What narcissistic personality disorder is and how it is different from narcissistic tendencies.

  • How to work with someone who is on the narcissistic continuum.

  • How borderline personality disorders show up and ways to handle them.

  • When we question whether we also present personality fractures or disorders.

  • The reality of living in a modern culture that is bifurcated in extremes.

  • The necessity of differentiation and boundaries.

  • The complexity of multiple relationships, such as being someone’s pastor, boss, and counselor.

If you have questions you would like addressed in a future episode, topics you would enjoy hearing, or just want to give us feedback, we would love to hear from you. Email us at

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Edited and produced by Evan (Emac) McAlister.

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